Q: Yeah, 'cause I was wondering if you thought that multiculturalism, which isn't endemic to England, of course, America, the Great Melting Pot, do you think that that deprives us of our identity or is it a blessing, given all the new hybrids that we get in art and --

A: Well, it's -- if you think there was ever a purer race in England to be lost, perhaps I would argue against that. I mean, you know, we're Anglo-hyphen-Saxon, supposedly. That's what they call us. The Angles came from somewhere around Denmark. The Saxons came from somewhere in Northern Germany. So what's the only part of that phrase "Anglo-hyphen-Saxon" that actually comes from England? Well, it's the damn hyphen, you know. So don't let anybody tell you that we weren't always a diverse people. You know, you're fortunate in that your country is based on that idea of pluribus unum, so you can fall back on that. And that gives everybody a stake in society, whether they've come last week or 100 years ago.

We don't have that. We have a different kind of history. And that history can be abused by people who seek to create hatred -- racial hatred and xenophobic, fear of foreigners in our country. And this is something that's very much on the agenda because the issue of whether or not we should join the European single currency, which is not a very sexy thing to talk about on records, I know, but the issue then becomes, what does it mean to be English? Is it something to do with, you know, Elizabeth I and Shakespeare, or is it actually English to do with what you see when you go out of your house in England. I would argue it's this 21st Century thing. You know, that Englishness is about where you are, not where your parents are from or your grandparents are from. I'm interested in that and we can talk about that and I have respect for that. But I want you to think about where you are and where your kids are going to grow up and what we have in common in this society that's just in the borders of England. Surely, that's more important than what happened, you know, 200, 300 years ago. We have plenty of examples of that in Northern Ireland of how that can be a complete trap. History can be a trap. History should be something that informs us in the present, but doesn't rule us. So I'm more interested in what you are.

And I have to also say it's a very personal thing. Identity is purely personal. It's what you think you are. I mean, there you are down there and you're down in Texas, having come from the Bronx. You know, I'm sure that when you're in New York you talk proudly about the Bronx and when you're abroad you talk proudly about Texas. And I understand that. But it's what you think you are, not what I think you are. Not what I pick up in your accent or the way you dress. It's what you think you are. And I think identity is personal. And I just want people to think a little bit more about themselves so that they don't exclude themselves from saying, yeah, I am part of this English thing, whatever it is, because we're trying to make it into something inclusive, rather than a narrow, exclusive definition.

England, Half English (Song plays)

Q: The song we just heard on KGSR, England Half English, as well as the Billy Bragg album that takes its name from it, has strains of music from India, the Caribbean, New Orleans, Reggae music. And the band that brings it about, Billy, is your group The Blokes. Can you tell me about these five guys? And have you ever been in a band that has an identity the way The Blokes have for you?

A: No, I've not, really. I mean, I have worked with some bands and some great bands as well. My own Red Stars, which I put together after "Don't Try This at Home." Of course, Wilco, working with them. They have a very strong identity. But what I think is great about this band is how they draw their identity from outside of what we would call, I suppose, Western music traditions. The two guys who played the stringed instruments that you heard on that last record, which include things like bouzoukis and tarbushes and djembes and these kind of weird sort of like Asian-African instruments, they've been in bands -- they've been close to bands like Public Image and the Three Mustaphas Three. My drummer played with Shriekback for many years. The bass player was in a band called Fairground Attraction. And they play this incredible mixture of world music. And then there's me and Ian McLagan, who - a resident of Austin, proud resident of Austin, who, of course, played in the Small Faces and the Faces. And he's kind of like -- he and I, I think are the kind of like glue that draw together these influences, but ground them very much in, only for want of a better word, called Billy Bragg, I suppose. Because I want these things to be drawn together into a new focus. I don't want me to be over there making a world music record or them to be dragged over here making a rock record. I'm trying to find a different groove somewhere in between there where I can take a song, a Billy Bragg song, and work it into a new kind of sound. Because, you know, I've got people who came on board from "Mermaid Avenue" who enjoyed the sound of that record. I've got older people who heard the albums before that. There's even people coming back to the absolutely solo records. So I'm trying to find a way to bring all of that together in one record, without -- you know, without making it sound like I've turned into Bjork or something. D'y'know what I mean?

Q: Well, what's funny is, the questions of identity having to do with the band and your music are the same questions of identity we were just talking about in England.

A: Well, that's the thing.

Q: I think you should call the album "English, Half English." It would work perfectly.

A: Yeah, I mean, the whole point is that the -- playing with this band gave me the courage to address these issues, because I think that if you start to talk about issues like nationalism -- you know, if one is sharp (intake of breath here). You know, what's the agenda here? If you can do that over the top of an Algerian folk song, the people can clearly see that you're not -- you know, you're not taking a very narrow definition of what that means, but you're actually trying to, you know, strike a chord with something that's actually really going on, if you look out with your eyes open.

Q: You're reflecting your beliefs in your own work.

A: Yeah.

Q: Billy, "England Half English" is your first album of all original new songs in five years. Inbetween, you did these two projects with Wilco, "Mermaid Avenue Volumes I and II." Together you and Wilco put the unpublished words of Woody Guthrie - who is a quintessential American folk songwriter - to music. So how did working with Woody lead you to this album, which is so broad?

A: Well, one of the interesting things that I found looking at Woody's work was the lack of cynicism in his lyrics. Here's a political songwriter, writing about people -- writing angry songs. But there's no cynicism in there. He really believes in people. And I looked at my own work. And I thought, well, that's something really to aspire to. But actually, strangely enough, if you actually look at the way politics are going in the last ten years, I think actually cynicism is one of the greatest enemies that we face in trying to make a better world. It's not organized, but it's incredibly damaging and pernicious outlet, because on one hand, you've got the cynics who sit on their butts and just -- you know, and pour disdain on anybody who tries to do anything positive. And you can't argue with a cynic because they have all the answers. Or you've got the even more cynical people who feel that there's no way for them to express their anger and frustration so they turn to violence. And we know where that leads. We can all see where that leads in the last few months.

So I'm, you know, committed as ever to fight against that, against cynicism and try and create optimism about the ability of people to control their lives. I don't want to write songs like that. And you know, I never thought of this before. It's not a particularly political analysis. But listening to Woody Guthrie songs, there's a famous quote of Woody's about writing songs that lift people up, "I don't wanna hear no more songs about making people feel down and feels that it's their fault that they're in the situation they're in." He says, "I want to write songs that lift people up and inspire people." Well, I think there's a lesson for all of us in whatever we're doing. Not just songwriting, but whatever we're doing from that. And that's certainly the lesson I learned from working with the little guy.

Q: That's quite a lesson. The first song from "England, Half English" that we're hearing in the States is called N.P.W.A., No Power Without Accountability. It's one of the most political songs released as a single in ages, I feel, as a listener. And here we are in New York City on a day when the World Economic Conference is taking place. And in your song N.P.W.A. you reference organizations like the IMF and the WTO. And I know a book could be written about each of them, but is there a way for you to just briefly try to tell those of us who aren't familiar with the IMF and the WTO who they are and what they do?

A: Yeah, sure. Well, the WTO is the World Trade Organization. And what they do is, they make it safe for multinational corporations to trade around the world. They can put sanctions on you if you don't open your country to their goods, for instance. And they ostensibly deal with trade disputes between nations, but it's really trade disputes between companies, really.

The IMF, they are a kind of like a bank. And they give out loans to countries. But they only give out loans to countries on their terms. That is, that those countries spend less money on welfare, don't tax people and open their country to privatization.

Now, we can see where that can lead to quite easily in countries that are voting in governments that are going to spend more money on schools and health and housing. And suddenly, they are in trouble, they go to the IMF and the IMF say, "Reverse that." And we were talking just a second ago about cynicism. Well, what could be more cynicism -- what could generate more cynicism that you vote and work to get a government in and then that government do the absolute opposite to what you voted them in to do. And I think governments do generate a lot of cynicism that's surrounding politics.

So how do you combat that cynicism? Well, I believe that you have to encourage people to believe that they have control over their lives and that they can hold, not just their government to account, but the IMF and the World Bank and the WTO to account. Because after all, it's our resources that's being spread around there, although it's not in our name. We are contributing to them. So it should be possible for us to hold those extra-governmental organizations to account.

And then if you extend that on, perhaps there's a principle where we should be able to hold the corporations to account, as well, so that corporations' decisions are accountable not only to their shareholders, but also to their employees and to the citizens of the community where that corporation has a factory or plant or something. So that instead of those companies just being able to pull the plug and move to another country, it should be possible for the workforce to say, "Well, hold on a minute. Surely we can do something about productivity and we can work it before you just pull the plug." And another way to stop that happening will be to ensure that wherever those companies go, the fundamental labor rights that we enjoy go with them so there's no incentive for them to go to another place and exploit already poor people even more. Because what happens is, they go to India to make a product at a third of the price, that it is in the United States of America, and someone says, "Hey, we can do that for half that in China." No, we can do -- you know, it just goes down and down and constantly down.

And you know, there's nothing wrong with, you know, supporting your community by buying the things that are made in it. It's tough to find sometimes things that are made in your community. And you know, I bought some -- I've seen some of these little stars and bars things that people are wearing on their lapels, the broaches. All the ones I've seen so far are made in China. I have no disrespect for that. That's where they're made and there's people in China. I have no problem with those people in China making a living. I totally accept that. But it would, perhaps, be better if there was a level playing field that wherever our jobs went, those labor rights went with them. The right to a fair wage, whatever the local fair wage is, and the right to representation. Those kind of things.

You know, we're trying to get to a place where people have control of their destiny through the ballot box, through accountability.

Q: It's not -- like all politics, like all issues, thought, it's not all black and white, I don't imagine, with the IMF and the WTO. We're in New York City, the World Economic Conference is happening here today. I understand that people like Peter Gabriel and Bono, perhaps, are working within that system to try and affect change. I don't know where you stand, but I know there's a lot of protesters who are going to be on the East Side of New York City tonight, outside of this gathering. Where do you stand? Outside, probably.

A: Yeah, I do. I stand outside. I want to know what right these people have to make these decisions about the way the world is run. You know, they're rich people and rich corporations. And they're in there and they're making decisions that could ultimately affect our lives. Now, I think that what we should be asking is: Who elected these people to these positions? Who gave them the right to have these decisions? And what control can we have over that?

So I will be firmly on the side of the protesters. But I have to say, I don't think you can change the world by smashing up fast food outlets. If you want to change the world, go organize a union in a fast food outlet. That's much more world changing. That's much more challenging than just smashing them up. So I'm in favor of positive engagement with capitalism. I'm in favor of, you know, drawing attention to things that could be done and should be done. And why aren't these things being done and making these people justify their greed? Because, you're right, it's not black and white. You know, this isn't the end of history. Frances Fukiyama (phonetic) wrote "The End of History." He's in that meeting, as well with Bono and Gabriel and all those other guys. And that wasn't the end of history. But what it was was the end of black and white -- a black and white version of history. It's much more complicated. And economics is much more complicated than that.

But in the end, you know, we have to make sure that the world we hand on to our children is one which is environmentally sound. And however you may feel about the methods of the anti-globalists, they have made a choice between living in a world based purely on exploitation and greed or a world based on something else. They haven't yet come up with an ideology or a soundbite to explain what that is. But they clearly have made that distinction. And I have to be on their side, because I think that's the choice we still have to make. Do we want to live in a world based on exploitation or a world based on a compassionate idea?

Q: And the ideas that Billy and I were just talking about are represented very well in a song from his new album. The song is called N.P.W.A. on 107.1 KGSR. This is Billy Bragg live.

(Song.)

Q: N.P.W.A. -- No Power Without Accountability. Billy Bragg live on KGSR. And that's the first song you've been hearing from his new album that's out as of March 5th and it's called "England, Half English."

Billy, like most of your albums, "England, Half English" is produced by one Grant Showbiz. For years I've seen that name and I'm goin', is that a pseudonym for someone. Who is he? Why is he entrusted to produce you for all these years?

A: That's a very good question, Jody. I'm glad you've asked that. I'll tell you for why, because he's also our soundman. He's been my soundman for a long time. When I first met him, he was a soundman for the Smiths. And he actually produced one of their albums, "Rank." He's done a lot of work with English bands, such as The Fall. He's produced a few of their albums. And because he's our soundman, when he's out on the road in soundchecks, where you do so much good work in sort of like jamming new songs, he's running a cassette all the time. He compiles those cassettes. He reminds us of those. You know, you're stuck on the studio and he comes and he says, "What about that song you played in blah, blah. You know, I've got the DAT here." And he puts it on and reminds you of that. Or he'll say something like, "You know, the way you're singing that, you're not singing it like you do it live." So instead of being a producer who's coming in cold and just taking the songs as presented them, he's seen us work and perform these songs. And he knows our strengths.

And one of the interesting things of working with a bunch of guys like The Blokes is working out their strengths and how to write, as a songwriter songs, that play to the best strengths of the band. The individual strengths of the band. And Grant has been a great help in doing that. I mean, he's as much a part of the band, really as anybody else, in that sense, because he knows how I do it solo. He knows how I do it with the band. And he's -- that insight that affords him when we get in the studio is something that's -- it's -- that's part of the collaboration because, instead of being someone who comes in that we don't know is going to produce the record, which can be a bit like a teacher and sort of school kid kind of thing in the studio, to be perfectly honest with you. They're going to send a grownup to make the record with us. With Grant, it's a much more of a give and take thing. And he's committed to this record as much as anybody else.

Q: I saw that that there was an authorized biography about you called "Still Suitable for Minors." Where you pleased with how this book turned out and would you suggest it to those who wanted to know more about you and your work?

A: I would, very much so, because I think the things that shaped me, mainly in the 1980s, as a songwriter, the ideological events that happened in England, may -- I mean, maybe the people in England don't even remember them, you know. Kids who are coming to the gigs who were born in the '80s may not know what I did. I mean, you know, the really important aspects of my career was being part of something called Red Wedge, which was a group of musicians playing together to support the Labor Party. Now, in the context of today, with the Labor Party in government and doing things that, frankly, we sometimes have to go out and protest about, that may sound ridiculous to someone who's 16 or 17 years old.

But what the book does, it puts those actions that we took in the '80s into context. You know, there is no Artists Against Apartheid anymore. Thank God. I'm proud of that. However, if you want to know how those things came together and the -- you know, where I got my inspiration from, then the book is pretty good on that.

It will also tell you that the first of the Billy Bragg gig was on the same -- the 20th anniversary of which is the day this album is released, which I find really funny. I just looked it up the other day. And, you know, how does a guy from East London suburb get from, you know, playing in his backroom to playing in Austin, Texas? I mean, if people can't - I certainly couldn't work that out when I was in my mum's backroom. And anything that gave me a few clues, would have been quite helpful. So, yeah, I would recommend it.

Q: The book's called "Still Suitable for Minors" for those of you who would like to look into it.

So Billy, you're going to the United Kingdom, the UK, in March, the States in April. Doesn't look like you're going to make it to Austin, at least the first go-round. But I have seen you do your shows. And I've seen some shows where your monologues were quite long and others when you spoke a lot less and danced more. So I'm wondering, you know, what dictates how you're going to be when you get onstage?

A: Well, if we knew the answer to that, Jody, we would be able to -- we would be able to -- it's very strange. I mean, I've done shows -- I can remember doing a show in Austin where part of the show seemed to be dictated by some hats we'd found in the dressing room, which was the catering -- big catering college. And we came out wearing the hats. And the show kind of like revolved around these ridiculous -- this ridiculous headgear, which means nothing the night before or the night after. So it's really, you know, if anything's took my interest the day before or the day after, it may be that or I'm -- you know, it may be that I have to put some songs into context, because as I was just saying, I've been writing about what's happening in England. It sometimes needs a little bit of contextualizing. Other times, I might only have an hour to play. So rather than waste my time yakking, I get in there and play.

But you have to remember that what I'm doing, I suppose, is more folk music than anything else. And folk music is about talking and communicating. And it's not just about -- I think one of the problems with -- about rock is it sometimes can get rather po' faced and serious. And even bands that are singing the most, you know, assinine lyrics take themselves incredibly seriously. Well, I don't take myself seriously. I know I've got a stupid job. I know it's no way for a grown man to act. And everybody else is having to -- you know, everyone else has a day job. So I see how daft all this is and how lucky I am. And I just want that to come across to the audience. A, that I don't take myself to seriously; and B, that I want to entertain people. Because my feeling is this: I have a political message which I want to deliver. It's much easier for me to deliver that if people are relaxed and enjoying themselves. Then you can slip in a bit of serious stuff. The other way round, if you're just hammering people over the had constantly with it, I've always found that's rather self-defeating.

Q: Well, years ago, you sang that you were still "Waiting for the great leap forward." Do you think that leap is ever going to come?

A: That's difficult -- very, very difficult question to answer, Jody. But even if it doesn't come, practicing our leaping, I think, is an important thing to be doing. It's not about reaching utopia. It's about heading in the general direction of it and not falling back and heading away from that. So that's the important thing. So I still wait, but I'm also practicing my leaping and seeing how far I can leap and hope that when it does come, I'll be ready.

Q: Well, Billy's got some leaping to do. And we're going to leave everyone with a song from his new album, "England Half English." It's called Some Days I See the Point. And it nicely puts together the different facets of your musical personality. Is there anything you can tell us about the inspiration for this song?

A: Yeah. I have a big, black dog and he needs a lot of walking. And, you know, that's where I'm looking out and thinking and the songs come and things about my life come. It's my meditation. I walk on the cliff, I walk on the beach. It's what I do to expand my mind.

Q: Case closed.

A: Thanks, mate.

(End of interview.)