One listen to Rickie Lee Jones’ 2005 career anthology, Duchess of Coolsville, reveals an artist who in almost 30 years of recording has always followed her own musical compass. Now, in 2007, Rickie Lee’s compass has led her to record Sermon on Exposition Boulevard, 13 songs of spiritual yearning, songs set to a musical landscape that is at once contemporary and raw. Her 10th studio album, Sermon on Exposition Boulevard is unlike any album Rickie Lee has ever made, yet it remains quintessentially Rickie Lee Jones.
During the next hour, we’ll have a conversation with Rickie Lee Jones that will shed some light on this new collaborative project, one with lyrics that put Christ’s words into a modern-day context.
Rickie Lee, it’s good to be here to talk about this one of a kind project.
A It’s wonderful to see you.
Q And so much of the vibe of Sermon on Exposition Boulevard goes beyond linear discussions, but I thought we’d have a go at it anyway.
Q Let’s start with the collaborative nature of this CD. Over the years you’ve worked briefly with people like Walter Becker, Dr. John, Rob Wasserman. But Sermon on Exposition Boulevard, it’s a true team effort. This began as a project that author Lee Cantelon was working on. Can you tell me about that?
A My friend, Lee Cantelon, has designed my albums for the last ten years. He’s a good friend, a graphic designer. And someone described him as a Renaissance man, which I think is a wonderful description of him. And he had written a book before I met him called The Words, which are the words of Christ, that’s all, and taken out of the Bible, out of the stories, with no commentary. And he had asked friends to come and read from the book to musical beds that he had created with Peter Atanasoff. Peter’s a guitar player I’ve known a long time. And worked with Tito and the Tarantulas. Comes from there. But I’ve known him since he was a little kid.
And so they had made these beds. And Lee was inviting a diverse group of people to come and read. And it wasn’t -- you know, it wasn’t a call to Christians. It was just a call to people to hear the spirit of the words, away from the religious context. He had asked Mike Watt, bassist for the Minutemen and a friend also of ours, and a homeless fellow, who, you know, traverses the blocks in front of the Carlotta on Franklin and Gower, who has a wonderful, wonderful, powerful voice. So they had done two pieces. And then when I came in to read -- because I had -- he was just going to have men do it, he did that without thinking. And I went, “But you have to have women read the words of Christ.” It’s this assumption that -- that this spirit comes through -- doesn’t come through women. You know, we just have to lay (that) down to rest.
When I came in to read, instead of reading, I was inspired to sing. I was inspired to sing.
Q Because these musical beds already existed that Lee and Peter did, does that mean you didn’t have a hand in writing the music on this album?
A The first five or six songs I had nothing to do with writing the music. And so for me to be able to come in to somebody else’s work and participate, created a whole other framework for me to operate in. And I think that’s part of why it’s such a different sound for me, because I have, you know, a different -- I’m able to wear a different hat. It’s a different sound for me.
I think grace finds me now through collaborative efforts. And in my life, what I am supposed to do is reach out to people, be part of other people. And that’s where I’m going to find inspiration. And I didn’t know that before I did this work. But after I did it, the message came to me through all kinds of goofy ways. Like, fortune cookies or books or -- it just seemed to be saying, “what you’re supposed to do now is -- is be part of other people’s voices.”
Q The first song on Sermon on Exposition Boulevard is Nobody Knows My Name. I think that’s the one you were talking about how you went in to read and wound up singing. Is the gist that nobody knows Jesus’ name because the spirit is beyond something that can be given a name?
A Well, the thing about the record is that I’m speaking about myself. But you know, it’s -- it is a play and it’s real. It’s me telling my story. But my story is Christ’s story, because everybody is the Christ figure, I think. That’s -- if there is any magic or truth to it, that would be it, because it is existing, not was or will. It is existing in us at all times. We are that story. And I am the spirit that never dies. You don’t know who I am. You can’t know my name. I can’t know yours. We have no name. And when someone gives us a name, then all these preconceptions occur and mistakes and lies. So I’m the spirit that always is and no one knows my name. I will never die. I don’t die and never did. That’s my story. So if you see Christ in that story, if that’s Christ telling that story. But as far as I can tell, that’s me telling that story, you know.
So when I think of the point of view of the Christ figure and say those words, they’re my words. But I think they’re probably the words of Christ as well. But I didn’t sing that as Christ, I sang that as me. And I think that’s where we meet. So when I stood in front of the mic, I was speaking as all of humanity that lives on and on and on in -- and God lives through us.
Do you know what I mean? I believe that it’s as easy for me to stand and sing as Christ as it is for me to stand and sing as me, because it’s very, very hard to be human. So yeah, it’s a little fiction and it’s a little, you know, true inspiration. What was amazing about this was that -- that it was made up at that moment. It was improvised. Here is the mic. We hadn’t heard the music yet. Played a little bit of it, said, “Stop, Stop, I’m going to do it.” “Don’t you want to listen to it?” “No, no.” Because I just knew it was there. I saw it sitting there like the mountain. I knew that -- so I sang the whole thing.
And at the end of it, you know, it rises and rises and rises. And the music ended and I was up in the air and then it just folded back down. And then we left it just exactly as it was.
Q Rickie Lee, besides the pun in the CD’s title Sermon On Exposition Boulevard, how did the Exposition Boulevard in Culver City play into making the album?
A You know, I didn’t know that “exposition” meant a sermon anyway. I found that out afterwards. So that was so amazing for me. But my friend -- well, Lee’s friend, an artist, had his loft -- his workspace on a little street called Exposition Boulevard that was a run-down street across from junkyards and leftover train tracks. And they decided to go there because it was free, but also, because it was a non-studio environment where people might be looser and they’d get what they wanted to get. Really -- his name is Marc Chiat the painter. And that’s how we ended up there.
Q The sound of the CD is seamless, but there’s two sets of producers.
A Right.
Q We talked about Lee Cantelon and Peter Atanasoff. They did the first song we just heard. But Rob Schnapf, who’s also worked with Eliott Smith and Beck -- and you used a couple of studios? Why did you set up the CD’s production with two different teams and two different studios?
A Well, the first group of recordings in the loft lasted about six weeks. And then Marc came back from Italy and took his loft back. And it took us nine months to get it back together. And I knew that we couldn’t get back into the loft, anyway. So the question was how to keep the continuity of that spirit. And I can’t remember now how I found Rob. But when I met him, I liked him right away. And I said, “We have these tracks. They need to be put together and we need to record new things. Can you help us do it?” And he said, “Yes.” And he was -- what a master. He really pulled it all together. It was fantastic.
Q And there’s a lot of space on these tracks. There’s percussion, guitar, bowed electric bass, trumpet. But you left a lot of room. Was that giving yourself room to move lyrically?
A Well, the first six -- you know, I had nothing to do with those. They were just the ambient tracks. The tracks I got my fingers in on were Elvis Cadillac. The last three or four I’m influencing a lot more. But I tried to -- that was the thing was to not let me take it over, because it needed to stay their vision where I participated. And it would have been so easy for me to dominate. And I keep going back to them, “You guys don’t let me take this over. Keep being the ones who call the shots.” The only thing we set out to do on purpose was to be sure that it did not become polished. To keep it as raw and yet not out of tune, but as raw as it could be.
Q Because there’s a free-wheeling approach to Sermon. There’s no R&B, no jazz, no pop. It’s almost punk/folk, if you will. There’s very little that sounds like what most people would associate with your music.
A You know what? I know that. And yet, I can’t figure out how that happened, because the spirit that I feel about my music is so raw. But I realize that the production and what I’ve become associated with is not. And so I’m really glad that I was invited by Lee to participate in this record, because it’s much more how I feel. It’s much more the spirit that I feel inside me than the production that I -- but that’s what I do by myself. I’m not able to do this by myself. I need to do this with others. So yeah, yeah, I feel really comfortable in this environment. And I know that I’m deeply rooted musically -- this kind of raw, impulsive, of-the-moment music is what I do. And yet, when I’m by myself, I think it just comes out so different. So I think that’s why I don’t appear out of my element here, because the spirit of what’s going on is just very natural.
Q Which is evident in the song Falling Up. It’s also simple musically, but a little lusher. I may be over-analyzing this song, but sometimes falling, pain and failure leads to growth, ascension. Am I on track with Falling Up?
A Sure. You know, I can’t interpret a song, because -- I don’t mean to be corny, but I’m just a messenger. I don’t set out to say at the end of this song “I’ll have said this”. I just write down the words that come to me. And by now, I know they’re going to make sense and teach me something I didn’t know. So even more so, every single person’s experience is going to interpret that song for them. So you can’t ask me to tell -- to verify -- to make it valid, because it’s valid for you. That’s what it means to you. And if it means to me falling up -- and to you it means growth and regeneration, it’s supposed to go out to you. So I just wrote down the words. I was just the messenger.
Q Rickie Lee, people have been hearing this record already. Are they making an assumption that you’ve undergone some sort of a spiritual transformation or something?
A They are not. That was the worry at first, that we’re so damaged by Christianity and by televangelists and by a lot of Christians who feel it’s their job to convert people. So when you hear that word, you brace. And so then people begin to make assumptions. And that was part of the reason I did this. My friend -- my friends who are Christians, well, when I first met Lee 10 or 12 years ago, we would have these big knock-down drag-out fights about Christianity. And I was very anti Christianity, very against it. And held him responsible personally for the sins of churches for the last thousands of years, which I think people do with individuals who are religious. They hold them responsible for the behaviors of churches, Muslims, Christians, whatever.
But it’s been a long process for me. And what I’ve learned is that a person finds solace and hope and faith where they find it. And it’s not necessary for us who think of ourselves as smarter, free-thinking people to judge them as lesser than us because they found solace in -- in a - pre-made idea, like a religion. We think I think -- well, my journey is to find the way, the word, enlightenment through a series of things that have not yet been prescribed, that I’ll seek and find on my own. And that’s okay.
They’re both okay. But there’s no reason to believe that there might not be hope and enlightenment and wisdom in any of these religions, in spite of the fact that a lot of evil is done in the name of a prophet. So I think the same thing about Muslims as I do about Christians. I don’t think that they are responsible for the evil that governments or extremists do in the name of their religion. So whether or not you want to believe the -- I call it rigmarole lately -- but believe the extraordinary events in a lifetime of either of the prophets. Whether an angel came down in a Cadillac or whatever happened. The main emphasis should be just on what was the message of the rabbi, what did he say, what are his teachings. That’s all. Not what do people say he meant and so you should do and you should recite this and you have to wear this. I don’t believe any of -- any of the things that human beings have placed on this matter at all.
But what I found in doing the project with Lee was that there -- it’s just golden. It’s golden the message of Jesus. It’s golden and it harms no one and it offers a good way to live your life. I’m not into the distortion and worship and mis-alignment of that idea, which I think is what happens when people align themselves with clubs, which we call churches. But as far as I’m concerned, they’re clubs. And you have exclusive membership and you’re an in group and they’re an out group and you’re cooler than them, but they’re not. And all that judgment and stuff that goes on. And it’s not anybody’s business to make anybody else believe what they believe. It’s for each person to find their way.
Because I really believe we’re all the word of God being spoken. And everybody has their song. And every song is important, a lifetime being a song. And it’s not for anybody to say, “Everybody’s supposed to sing the same note.” It’s the spirit that we seek. It’s the spirit of humanity and hope and joy and forgiveness and the Golden Rule. And anybody who brings that to the room, no matter whose name they operate under or don’t operate under, is doing a good work and is welcome. And everybody’s job ought to be to help anybody who needs help. And that’s what some of the wonderful things were I found in the Christ idea of -- for me, with anger problems and to overcome anger and go, “if he wants to take your shoes, give him your coat”. If we could kind of do that, all this potential for fury and fighting and war begins to dissipate, because when you -- most of it, not every time, but when you respond to an angry person with love and forgiveness, they almost always just melt. They just can’t keep it up. Because you touch their heart. But if you respond to their anger with anger in return, then -- so they’re just good words to live by.
And I don’t feel the need to set up a cross. I don’t like the cross. I don’t think the cross is the symbol of Christ. The cross is the symbol of the torture of his death. And to me, that’s not the main emphasis. I’d rather emphasize the beauty of the words that were said. And whether or not he rose from the dead, who cares? I just don’t care. It’s not the message to me. The message is just the words that he had to say. So that’s my radical view.
Q Well, your symbol then could be the piano or the guitar, because that’s how you find your way. That’s how you get to your --
A Exactly. That’s how I find my way to the higher plane. That’s how I’m able to talk to human beings. Because all by myself, I’m pretty shy. But when I stand on the stage and with the guitar, I feel like not only do I get to talk to them, but they get to talk to God. You know, they get to go places. It’s their vehicle they use. But they go places that are wondrous when they listen to music. It’s an amazing vehicle for them. And I get to be part of that.
Q Where I Like it Best is certainly one of the album’s standout songs. I understand it was the second on you recorded and that the lyrics, like the first, we also improvised?
A Right.
Q You seem to take aim in Where I Like it Best at those who claim God is their own to further political or social beliefs. Is that something that Jesus addressed or is addressed in the book The Words?
A It is absolutely what he addressed. Where I Like it Best is kind of me paraphrasing the Lord’s Prayer. I had been saying to Lee for a long time, “You know, what? In the Catholic Church, if you go to confession, they have you go say prayers as punishment.” You know, it would be one thing if you were saying a prayer as a beautiful thing. But the prayers are actually punishment for what you did. Now, how can a prayer be a punishment? It’s just crazy. And then they have you say the prayers over and over and over. Go say five Hail Marys and four Our Father’s.
And when the person asks Christ, “Rabbi, tell us how to pray,” one of the things he said was, whatever you do, don’t be -- don’t go out and say your prayers over and over and over in rote. Don’t be mindless about prayer. Don’t be banging your bell and walk around and make a parade out of it so everybody sees you praying. Pray alone, by yourself, in the secret room of your heart. This is what Christ said.
But anyway, I had the book open – “The Words” open and the Bible open. And then it was so timely, because he said almost exactly what I said in that song. I just set it up to be contemporary. I made it personal. Here I am. I’m by myself. I live in a world where I’m embarrassed to pray. I can’t find a way to pray. And I sure don’t want to be like those people on TV who pray. And yet, I need to talk to God. How do I talk to God? So I said, tell me how to pray. And he said, when you pray, pray alone.
So I was just trying to set it up the same way it was at that sermon. I was thinking, who was the person who asked Christ, “tell us how to pray?” I want to be that person. Tell us how to pray. And then remind people that you’re not supposed to -- you don’t need to say this prayer over and over and over again. Make up your own prayer. That’s what he was saying.
And then they ended up imitating make up your own, saying it over and over. And that was just exactly what he was saying, whatever you do, don’t do that. So it just seemed so misaligned, misconstrued, the whole -- it seems like from the bottom up, the way people approach the Rabbi and the teachings are wrong.
And while I was there in the song, it’s still just making it contemporary where he pointed at some people -- they used to walk by evidently in the street of Jerusalem when they were praying to show their piousness, ringing bells and playing trumpets. And he said, whatever you do, don’t do that. Prayer is a quiet and silent thing. And so I pointed out the TV evangelists that sit there and tell you to touch your TV and send us some money. This is exactly what Christ told people not to do. If you are hurting, if you’re lonely and you’re alone in the world, how do you break through out of this space and time and have some communion with the other invisible world? Well, you do it in a quiet way. You don’t have to go to church. That was just part of what his message was.
So I’ll tell you about Where I Liike It Best. I would say half of the times we’ve played it, but the first three times we ever played it in public, people stood up and started clapping. We were so moved. And I still find that in the middle of this song it resonates such truth with people. It’s a fantastic thing. It’s a little house all its own, that song.
Q Because these musical beds already existed that Lee and Peter did, does that mean you didn’t have a hand in writing the music on this album? 
Q We talked about Lee Cantelon and Peter Atanasoff. They did the first song we just heard. But Rob Schnapf, who’s also worked with Eliott Smith and Beck -- and you used a couple of studios? Why did you set up the CD’s production with two different teams and two different studios? 
Q Well, your symbol then could be the piano or the guitar, because that’s how you find your way. That’s how you get to your -- 
